Interview transcript (1 of 1)

Louise Whelan:
This is Louise Whelan interviewing Justine Kisimba on 18 June 2014. We're interviewing in Justine's lounge room in her house in Doonside. Thanks for you're going to be interviewed for the State Library of New South Wales Refugee And Migration Stories.

Justine Kisimba:
Thanks, Louise.

Louise:
Are you okay to proceed?

Justine:
Yes.

Louise:
Good. Can we just start with your full name and date of birth?

Justine:
Justine Lai Kisimba, I was born on the 26/6/1978.

Louise:
Okay, and can you tell us where you were born?

Justine:
I was born in a very small little town of kum-in-Ii in the Democratic Republic of Congo where I grew up with my parent and my 11 - yeah, 11 brothers and sisters. We all grew up there, but at the moment everyone is scattered all over the world, yeah.

Louise:
Tell me a bit about that place where you grew up.

Justine:
I think, as I mentioned earlier, it's a very small little place. There was nothing much, but for every child, where you are born, that's the place you feel home. There was so much to do. We had so much fun, like - we had few things to play with. It's not like here in Australia, people play, they have so many technologies to play with. A few like, at that moment, the only thing we had to play with was the backyard, and mostly we were in the bush. Because we were not far from the bush - with my friend, if we are bored, we are going to say, "Okay, let's meet at this bush," and we'll go there, have fun. We catch some bird, some rat. We ate some rat during that time, and mouses. So, yeah. We had so much fun with my friends, so yeah - some small places, but so much fun.

Louise:
What number were you in the family?

Justine:
Number 12. I'm the last of the family. I had eight sisters and three - no, seven sisters and four brothers. Yeah.

Louise:
Right, and tell me a bit about your parents. Was that kind of a village life, and were they educated at all?

Justine:
My parents, they were not really educated that much. My father worked for a water company for - by that moment, yeah. I think, when I was just growing up I never saw much of him working. I was just in my teenage moment, about 12 or 13. While my dad left work, he was already old, because as I mentioned, I was the number 12. I was born really late, in their old age. So, they were never really educated that much, they never knew a lot. My mum lived home for all of the moment I was there - she never worked once. They had, like, the farming life - that's what they were involved more. That's what I knew more, because when my father was working, I was just a small little girl. So what I knew most was the moment where they had farming. Yeah, I would visit them to the farm, because I had some of my sisters - me and my brother that now lives in South Africa, Dodo. We were the youngest, so most of the times, my mum would go to the farm for a week; we'd be left with my other sister, that passed away about, I think, in 2001. She was the one who kind of looked after us, because my mum would have to go out looking for something for us to eat. We only met them during the weekends, Saturday and Sunday, they would come. Sometimes they would be with us on Monday, but make sure, Saturday, they are going back. So, yeah.

Louise:
What was the farm?

Justine:
It was not really big. It was just a small thing that they just managed to buy, to get some - mostly corn, corn and cassava and all the other vegetables, just to feed the family. It was not the big deal that they have to sell what - no, it was just a family affair.

Louise:
What would kind of daily life be, like what would you eat and -

Justine:
Okay. I think mostly, like, we ate something we call Ugali. That's the main dish that people eat in Congo, or they - when we talk about rice, it's something that comes not really often. But we all ate Ugali. That was at that moment of time, and mostly vegetables - that's what we ate mostly. That's why you see, for me, it's more like I've grown up with that. Even my kids, they all have to eat the vegetables. Despite whatever they eat, there is always extra vegetables for them to eat, because - I think I got that from my mum. So we didn't have really much. I'm not going to say that my mother, my parent, provided much for me, no. I'm always grateful. Today, I see myself, the person that I am today, because of them. Even though they were not able to provide me with a lot, but that small they gave me has made me the person that I am today, and I'm grateful for that.

Louise:
Good. What about education, did you go to school?

Justine:
Yeah, I did. I was educated, I went up to Year 9 - Year 9, because they made sure, even though they had nothing much, but education was the most important to them. If you know most parents in Africa, they'll try their best to send their kids to school, because through education, that's where someone can progress. There's nothing else people can do in Africa. Through education, that's where you progress. But at that moment, I left the small village where I grew up in 1995, because my mum thought that there was no future for me to live in that small town. She thought I have to go, because my other sisters, they were already in Lubumbashi, the second biggest city of Congo. So my mum sent me there to go live with my sister. I lived there - when I arrived there, my sister took very good care of me. She sent me to school, I went to a Catholic school, it was just a girls' school, Catholic school. I went there for about a year, then after that, I arrived in December - what year, 1994. 1994, December.

Louise:
So you were how old?

Justine:
I was 17. I was 17 in 1994 when I left. 1995, the whole year I went to school, but in 1996, April, I got married. I left.

Louise:
How old were you when got married, nine - eight -

Justine:
18, I got married at 18.

Louise:
So tell me about - how did you meet your husband?

Justine:
That's - I think, meeting Isaac, it's something that I never really expected. I was never planning to get married. I was 18, just like any other girl - you are having fun, you want to have - to enjoy your childhood. So, that particular day, Isaac left wherever he was living. The paper said just he wanted to marry someone. I was living in the other village. So, when he came, he planned to marry someone, and I went to school in the morning dressed in my uniform, just like any other normal day. But when I reached school, I just felt like I didn't want to study that day. Just, I had no - I was not moved into school that day. So then I left around 10 a.m. I left, I was going back home. Then I met this guy on the way. He looked at me, he goes, "What's your name?" I told him my name, "My name is Justine." He goes, "You know what? I want to marry you!" It's really shocking to hear that. From a point of view of a woman, someone just - you, I have just met you and you want to marry me, really? I was young, then. The only thing I told him, I said, "Really? Okay, you have to talk to my sister then if you want to marry me. I can't tell you anything. So let's go meet my sister."

Louise:
On the same day?

Justine:
On the same day. We left, we went home, I told my sister, said, "You know what? This guy wants to marry me." “Okay,” said my sister. Okay, what's his name? My sister said, "Okay, bring him in the house." He came in, apparently then to come and realise my sister knew the whole family. Isaac's father was the doctor - he was a family doctor to everybody in the area. So then, "Oh! I know this man, oh! He is Papa Phillip's son." So, that's how it is that I didn't know him. But my sister - because I came from another village, I didn't know anything about him. So that's how we got married.

Louise:
Just like that? So -

Justine:
Just like that. It all happened in three, four days.

Louise:
Is that normal, to happen in the Congo like that?

Justine:
Yes, it's really normal. It's really normal. I think, maybe for us, it was a little bit extra. Sometimes I feel, okay, maybe did I - at that moment, I never even felt if I made the right decision or not. Because then I realised, okay, maybe I can just get married. So that's it.

Louise:
Did you have to speak to your parents or anything?

Justine:
Yes. That very day, my sister said I can't do anything, because my mum lived in another village. I had to call my uncles. When I went to tell my uncles, they were shocked. "Really? Are you sure? Is this what you want? Okay, if this is your choice, we are going to let you have it." So then, yes, my uncles came the next day. That was about, I think it was - we met on Tuesday. Wednesday, my uncles came, they met Isaac. So by Friday, Isaac came to pay the bride price. Saturday, we had our traditional wedding. That was it.

Louise:
What - he - to pay the what?

Justine:
The bride price.

Louise:
What's that?

Justine:
For African women, for you to marry me you have to pay. It's not something that comes for free. It's for the man, you have to pay. It's more like you compensate the parents for everything that they've done for that girl. You have to pay. Some other families, if you look like here in Australia, for African families, there's some that, if you want to marry my daughter - let's say an example, give you my daughter Nadine. If you want to marry Nadine, I can say, "Okay, you have to pay me 50,000 for you to marry my daughter," and you have nothing to say about that. You have to give me that. Then on top of that, we always have gifts tradition. They'll have some drinks for the family, you have to buy clothes, full pieces of clothes for the mother, you buy full suit for the father. Some go even extra - they'll buy for the brothers and the uncles and sisters and everyone in the house, the grandmother. So, it's that. My family didn't want to go there. They never charged anything. They just said, "Okay, you have to give us something, so that you can get your bride." So, yeah, he went and brought his family, they paid something; that's it, we are on our way.

Louise:
How were you feeling? Were you scared, or nervous, or excited or -

Justine:
At that moment, I was not excited. I guess I didn't feel anything, because I was this young girl - okay, but the shock. I'm married! It's a big responsibility. I'm married and I'm 18 here, what am I going to do? Okay, because part of my brothers, they never came. Most of - let's say most of my brothers, they never came to any of my things because they never agreed to the idea.

Louise:
To getting married?

Justine:
No, most of my brothers, they never even came. I can say, even now, up to now, some of my brothers have never met Isaac.

Louise:
Really?

Justine:
Yeah, they've never met Isaac. Like my other brother that lives in Mota. He has never met Isaac. I think that it's something that, yeah, one can do whatever you have to do; you follow your heart. I followed my heart to marry my husband, and yeah, I did that.

Louise:
What responsibilities did you have as a wife?

Justine:
I think the first thing, as a wife in Africa, the difference is that I'm so glad I came here. Like you feel, even if you are studying, that responsibility of you going to school ends there. You don't feel like, 'I have to go back to school,' because you feel, 'Okay, I'm going to be a mother'. Your dreams end there. You are going to be dependent, you have to depend on your husband on everything that you need. You need the children, you need rent and everything to be covered by your husband. So, I never thought that - even though I was young, I never thought going to school was the most important thing for me to do at that moment. As a mother, I had a responsibility to look after my husband, I have to make sure my house is clean, I wash for my husband, iron for my husband, cook for him. So, that's what really changes you the person into - you are not this little girl anymore that plays outside with your friend. That mean - what it means is that even if you live in the same area, all your friends that are your childhood friends, they are cut off. They are cut off from you, you have to start another journey, you have to meet these grown-up people, because we always believe that, with the younger girls that you used to hang out with, they'll never teach you anything that is related to marriage. You have to meet people that have experience into this, so that they make you - help you move forward, instead of you being drawn back. Because most of the friends, they will tell you - most of my friends told me, ''Really, are you getting married? Why? You shouldn't get married. Let's have fun.'' Then you feel, if I continue this trend, I'm going to end this thing, it will never last. So yeah, that was the whole thing.

Louise:
Where did you live and what did you do?

Justine:
We lived a little bit in there with Isaac, then Isaac got a job in Kasenga, where he went to work as a teacher. That's where the whole thing went off. At that time, we were okay, our life was okay, We were so better, up until the war came. That's the moment we left very scattered - thank God maybe for that as well.

Louise:
At that point, had you had children yet, or were you...

Justine:
I had Nadine and Isaac.

Louise:
Nadine and Isaac. Do you want to talk a bit about that?

Justine:
Having my kids?

Louise:
Yeah.

Justine:
I think, the first time after just getting married, the following year I fell pregnant there and then. There was no anything, there and then. The following year, I had my first daughter. We named her Nadine - that was her name. That girl didn't live with us longer - long ehough, just for two years. She was only 24 months, then she died. When she died, we were so devastated. We never thought - I was only this 19-year-old girl. Losing your child, that's something that I've never gone - I can never understand, even now I've never passed through that. I don't know if I'll ever do that, because I feel like I was a young girl, and maybe I didn't have much support from people, because we got married and we moved away from our families, both. We went to live on our own, on the other side. So, yeah, my daughter - she was never sick. It's something that happened - it was on the New Year, on 1 January. Like every other African families, people celebrate that moment. So we had a celebration. In the morning, I woke her up, showered her, I dressed her up, I took her to one of my neighbour - because that's where she used to play more. We kind of had our children both together at the same time. She had a boy called Ken and I had my daughter called Nadine. They loved each other, so they played all the times together. So then Ken's mum came to me. She said, ''Okay, can you bring Nadine over, because Ken is ready.'' So then I took my daughter there, she went to play. Then after like half an hour later, she came to me and said, ''I think Nadine is not okay, she has a bit of fever.'' Then I said, "Okay." I got her back into the house, she went to sleep - about an hour, I heard her vomiting. She vomited only once during the afternoon. In the afternoon when Isaac was at the market, because there was a time where Isaac had a little shop at the market - so Isaac was at the shop. My daughter wasn't feeling well. I sent someone. I said, "Okay, can you tell Isaac to come over, to come and see the girl.'' When Isaac came, the temperature was so high, then we decided to take her to the hospital. When she went to the hospital, straight at the same time, the doctor looked - she said, "She is not in a good condition." So they put her in a coma. We stayed there for about two days. She died on the third. I always remember, she died on the third, in the afternoon, I think about - around 5 p.m., that's when she died. As I said, I was a young girl. I didn't even know that she is dead or - I didn't know what to do, because I didn't have anyone around with me. The lady next to me, she looked at me. She said, "Do you know that your daughter is dead?" I always remember that, she said. Then I remember looking at her, shaking my head saying, "Yes, I know." She cried, and then she asked me, "Where is your mother?" I said, "My mum doesn't live here with me." So she called the nurses, they came, they wrapped her. The moment they were wrapping her, it's more like that's when it just hit me. Then I started crying, looking around. Isaac wasn't there. So yeah. When we lost her, we felt like it was something that was really terrible. We never expected that, so at that moment, I was taken back to my parents for a little bit, to go live with my sister. I went back to my sister. I lived there for a month. I came back, Isaac moved the house. He thought that, by me coming back in there with all the memory, it is going to be hard for me to live. So, when I came back, I fell pregnant for the second time. It didn't take long. We had another girl, and then we decided to name her Nadine again, because we felt that what we lost, we just don't want to forget about her completely. We felt that she should be around by renaming the same name, so that we don't forget completely. So we renamed her back Nadine. So yeah. When Nadine was born, it was really hard for me to feel like I'm going to have another baby, because every second of her life, I felt like she is going to die. Because of that trauma in my head, I thought like, okay, every time she's sick, I would start panicking. I'm just feeling, she's going to die, she is going to die, she is going - I even started dreaming of that, my daughter is dead. So, yeah. I never felt like I would really have another child, then yeah, I just kind of went over it. That's when I came to have Isaac. Thank God, we had a boy. So, yeah.

Louise:
Did you have much other support for during that period?

Justine:
No, no. I never had any much support. Like from the moment when we lost the child. I always feel like maybe I needed a lot of support through that moment, because I was alone. Who cares? You lost your child, whatever. I always feel like sometimes, if I look at the support that we have in Australia and I compare to what I went through there, I thought maybe, if I were to be here in Australia, I could have had a lot of support through that. That's why maybe I feel that's why I still can't forget that. I still have that picture that the girls brought back to me sick - the moment we went to the hospital and the way she died, the way they wrapped her. Everything feels and looks fresh into my mind, because it's more like I've never passed that. I've never spoken about it. I don't speak about that. Whenever I come through her photos, it just comes and hits me that much. I've never really passed through that stage. I always feel, yeah - despite the fact that I've had six children, I've never forgotten her. No.

Louise:
So you had Isaac. Where were you living then and what were you doing?

Justine:
We were in Congo, the same place where we were after just having Nadine then. We had Isaac, just a little boy that came to bring us a little bit of trouble, around. So, that moment, Isaac was only three months that we went - the moment we left Congo. We were all happy having our happy life - okay, we are fine. Until people started saying, "There's rebels coming, there's rebels!" You would never think about things like that, because Congo was stable by that time. When we had Mobutu, everything was okay, up until Kabila came. He came with the soldiers; they started killing people. They started killing people. Isaac came, “We have to go.” How do you do it? You have to leave. We bribed the truck driver, because most people left with truck drivers, because they can -

Louise:
Right. How much time did you have?

Justine:
That night, we left - we went in the bush. Because the only thing you have, grab your child. We wrapped our kids and the -

Louise:
On your body?

Justine:
On the body, yeah. We always wrap - even here, remember. I wrapped the kid on the body. I wrapped Isaac. Isaac, my husband, also wrapped Nadine. That's how we left. We went in the bush. We went through the other village, because when you walk, everyone keeps running. There is no one to help. When you look around, it's so terrible. You see how many people were dying. You see kids dying. You don't even feel like you want - you have the heart, but really, if I waste my time here, they'll come for me.

Louise:
So did you see people that had died on the way?

Justine:
Yes, yes. People dying on the way, especially children, elderly people, because they can't walk extra miles. Okay, because the only people they wanted most was the men, recruiting young boys and men to go and join the team. But then for women, they had no issues for women. But it was - we feel like we were lucky, because we left earlier. For people who decided they were men enough, we don't want to go, it's going to be fine, everything will be okay - Isaac is always someone who is straight with his principles. When something just start, he goes, "No, no, no! My instinct, we have to go." So we left. We went to the next village. We stayed around the road for a long time, until the truck came. He helps us, because Isaac had that moment - because in Congo, it's easy to get dollars. You get your money, you change into dollars. Isaac, we used - like, we always have our money tied on our wrapper. Like the clothes we wear, we always have to wrap the money there.

Louise:
Inside the fabric…

Justine:
Inside. You always - sometimes you wear something, you always have money on you. I don't know why do we do that, but that moment we realised, that’s why we are taught to do this. Because the moment you are leaving, the last thing you want is your papers, you want the money. So that's how we left, we went. That guy took us all the way to Botswana. We never even knew Botswana existed. Here we are, we are found in another place where we arrived, got arrested. There is not like real - they took us to the police, and then they put us in cell with kids. Isaac was only three months.

Louise:
Why were you arrested?

Justine:
Because you enter in the country without a paper. You have to be arrested, you are an illegal migrant. So then when we went there, they have to interview, have to go through the whole process. We were interviewed, after - first, we came, it was on the weekend, like Saturday. There was no one, it was just the police. They took us straight to the refugee camp, where no one is there; all the offices are closed, everyone is closed. They took us in the cell, but very good, because Botswana is a very stable country, thank God. It's not like the Congo, where we came from. It's a very stable country; you are in the cell, they come, they have - they give you a choice, what do you want to eat? You have to tell them, "I want to eat rice." Rice with what? With meat? Rice? Oh my God! We were, what?

Louise:
What were you thinking at this stage, when you were in the -

Justine:
At first, you just feel, someone is going to come and get me. You have that fear of your life. It takes time for you to settle your mind. The system is just really different. I think people need counselling. Through all that, even in the refugee camp, people - that's where people need more counselling, because there, people don't speak. It's just the interview. They come, "Okay, what's your problem?" You explain your story, and that's it, is that all? Is that all? People need to go through counselling. That can help them through, by speaking about their stories, and you have this assurance - someone assures, "Now you are okay here, everything is going to be fine with you here." So that's the -

Louise:
How old was Nadine?

Justine:
Nadine was about four.

Louise:
Was she asking questions, what was happening or - yeah.

Justine:
Oh yes! She was, like when are we going home? We have to go back, when are we going? This is home, and then after the interview, they gave us a tent. That's your house. They gave us this very big tent like a pyramid. We don't even know, what are we going to do with this? But lucky enough, we found some other African Congolese people there. They came, everyone came in to help us. We fixed - that's your home, they give you mattresses. I don't know, three or four mattresses and blankets, some pot and a stove. They give you - how can I say, like a stove, but you use petrol.

Louise:
With the oil...

Justine:
To cook, yes, with the oil. You use petrol, they give you petrol, like 20 litres petrol, they give you the stove, they give you beans, rice; that's the meal. Okay. So, but that - you are grateful for all that, because when you look back where you came from, I can even have this - it's more, it's enough for me. We stayed there in that tent for as long as I can remember. That's my house. You wake up, you clean your house, we go to church. There was nothing much to do in the camp, absolutely nothing to do.

Louise:
So, how did you pass the day, what did you do?

Justine:
In the camp?

Louise:
Yeah.

Justine:
You get used - you meet friends there, you make a friend, because it's a very small little place. People meet there - mostly churches, you go to church. That's the daily activity. I always remember, because I'm always involved into church singing. I loved singing all my life. I sang in the church where I grew up, in Desumii. I forget to mention that. That's something that I did in my childhood, in the little kum-in-Ii town. That was my daily activity, mostly I was in the church. I was singing throughout that moment, and when I came back in that refugee camp, it's more like I found myself back again. I had nothing to do, I went to join the church, and I picked up the singing, the worship, praise and worship team. We were singing, yeah, like twice a week, and then we would go for evening or afternoon prayers. Because there was nothing - I don't have a job! But the only thing was that, throughout that - because when we were leaving, Isaac used to have a small briefcase. That's the only thing he carried, because that briefcase had all his papers in it. It's always important for people to know, that's why we've brought - even that system here. We always have a small thing that has all our original papers in there, because I know, at any moment, I'll grab that - everywhere I go, I'm connected.

Louise:
So you do that here in Australia as well?

Justine:
I do that, I do that. We have it. I have a blue one, a blue folder that I have everything in there. I don't know - maybe it's just through experience that you go through and you realise, okay, I need this. Then when we went in the refugee camp, Isaac said, ''I'm a teacher! For how long am I going to live here?'' But because the life was becoming so hard, he was really determined to get a job. He said, ''I'm not going to keep my children in this life for too long.''

Louise:
What were you thinking? Were you thinking that you are going back, or what were you thinking?

Justine:
Going back was not the option, that - because it never stopped. Everything just went worse and worse from this town to another town. It went worse. So now, Isaac realises, okay, if I'm not going back, I need to get a job here to support my family. I can't leave my family here in this poverty for how long? I need to establish something for my kids to look up to. So, Isaac started writing applications. On this small container - you know like where we bring - how can I say? Sometimes you write on the floor. Just down on the floor. He just get a paper and a pen, start writing applications. Just write the letter to send to schools. Like, people used to laugh at him, and people would go, “Really, do you really think you will get a job here as a refugee? You'll never get it!” But he was really positive. He said, ''You know what? One day. I may not get it today, but one day, I'll get it.'' He was really discouraged so many times, and I remember, I always feel like, for a person, there is things that you can go though and things that you can never go through in life. At that moment I looked - the love that Isaac had for his family, because he started getting - like, we had a big family. They'll give us some food, and then this is rice - as I told you, we eat Ugali, and then you give me rice and beans. This is something I'm not used to. I need to get money for me to buy something, some flour that will help me make Ugali. So then, we started selling some of the things to the - because they had some shops in there. I'll sell few things that they - just in exchange, okay, and then sometimes -

Louise:
So you sell rice for flour?

Justine:
Yeah, you sell rice for flour, and then there was a time where Isaac started going in the bush, like hunting some bird or anything. Just, he had that deep love for his family. He said, "I'm going to do anything just to make my children happy." Because how do you feel, as somebody who used to provide for your kid and suddenly your kids come to you, "Dad, can I have this?" "I don't have." "Dad, can I have this?" "I don't have." He was really heartbroken, especially for him. For me as a mother, I looked at it okay, it's just kids, but for him it was really heartbreaking.

Louise:
Because that was his role.

Justine:
Yeah. So, up until another moment, where we were just in the camp - that was a bright shiny day; Isaac got a call. Because in everything he did, we were selling the food - sometimes we sell some food, he just wanted a mobile phone. "I need to get a phone. If I have a number on this application, people will be able to call me." So we saved up. Isaac bought this small little Nokia. Oh my God, he bought a small little Nokia.

Louise:
Do you still have it?

Justine:
No, I wish I brought it. So he brought that small little Nokia. Yeah, one day, he received a call. They called him, "Are you Isaac?" He goes, "Yes." "Where are you?" He told them, "Amdown, and that was in the city. They go, "Are you able to come here?" He said, "Yes, I am." Guess what? He does not even have a coin to get for his transport. He goes, “Yes I will.” So, after they told him, "You have to come here by next week, we need you. We really need you as a French teacher, because we don't have anyone here." Then Isaac went around, borrowed some money from his friends - they gave him money, that's how he went. He got a job. He started to look for a small place. That's how he lived there.

Louise:
So what was his job?

Justine:
He worked as a schoolteacher, high school teacher, teaching French, and that was a very good school. It happened to be one of the biggest private school ever. Oh, my God! When he went himself, he was, "Really, am I really?" Because most people there, they have white teachers there. Most of them drive. You find yourself working in - it was a very real experience for him. So, yeah.

Louise:
How far was it from the camp?

Justine:
That was so far. That’s a long kilometres. It's a drive like - I don't know how many kilometres, it's a whole day drive. You don't drive. But we never drove, we had to take a train. We took a train like - you catch a train in the camp. Not even in the camp because there's no train in the camp. We take a bus from the camp, take you two hours to Francistown. Francistown, then you get in the train to Gaborone. Gaborone, that is the city. You get in the train in the night, you arrive in the morning. So it was a very long -

Louise:
So did you all go or just him?

Justine:
No. When he went himself, we wanted him to go and establish himself. He went there, he got a job, until he got a small place. That's when, after two or three months, that's when we followed him, and the kids.

Louise:
Right, and how long did you do that for?

Justine:
He did that for about two years, because - thank God for that, when he went there, then he realised, because they had access to the computer and all that then, he came across the Australian forms for settlement. He read that. He goes, 'I think I'm eligible, I'm going to try.' Then the way he did it, he got the forms, he came in the camp, we fill in the form with some friends - because he thought, okay, why me? I can also give this to some...

Louise:
So no one at the camp told you that you could do that?

Justine:
Nope! No one in the camp told us that you could do that. It was just the knowledge that - I don't even know how it occurred in Isaac. He came across that. He printed those forms, he brought it, he told me, "Let's just try anyway, we are losing nothing. We just put a stamp and try." We gave to some of the people - we had about 20 families, because he thought, 'Maybe if I apply alone, someone can leave Australia to come and meet me by myself. No. I am to give somebody also, so that we are maybe they'll be interested to bring more people'. So, that's how it all started. We filled in the form, we sent to the Australian Embassy. We didn’t even know it's - Isaac sent it, I don't know, to Perth or somewhere, where it went. Then, there, they called him. They said, "Okay, this form that you sent to u, we've sent it back to Pretoria, that's where it's supposed to go." So, everything went to Pretoria. Three months later, we received the news that - because now we had a box at his school where he was working, they sent him a letter. They said, okay, you have to go for the interview. What? But when the list came, you know the UN offices - no one was pleased with that, because Isaac - we all did these things privately. They were shocked to receive these things with the names, we want these people for the interview. Who did this? Because I believe that the UN that we have in Africa, most of them are not there to help people. They are not there to help refugees. I don't know if they want people to suffer, they want people to die, whatever! I have no idea. When they receive the news, 'We want these people for the interviews', you know what they did? It was 20 or 25 families they chop it into half, and then why did they do that, cut it in Isaac's name? Isaac goes, "No way, I'm not going to do this." So then Isaac wrote a letter to Geneva. Yes, he did. That, I always say, "Isaac, where were you getting all these ideas?" He'll go, "I'm educated, I've understood these things. The only thing, you have to go and search for all the information that you need." So yeah, that's how -

Louise:
What did Geneva do?

Justine:
They sent back the letter there. They sent that email that Isaac sent back to the protector - protect, the officer back in Gaborone, at the UN office. That's when they brought this - I mean, they - what can I say? They brought out another list with all the people as it was, so we all went for the interviews. Then after the interviews, three months later, we received that we have to go for the medical examination. We went for the medical examination as all we went. They found that I had Tuberculosis. Thank God for that, because I didn't even know it existed, I never coughed for once, I never felt nothing.

Louise:
Were you sick?

Justine:
I wasn't sick, I was fine. When we went for the X-rays, they found that all the left part was taken with Tuberculosis. So, I was lucky for that moment. The doctor failed me, I went for treatment. I took treatment. During that period, most people it was - only, we started the whole process in January. By May, the first group left for Australia. The next month, another group left for - we were the last family to leave, in December. So, I took my medication for six months. That was something I have never experienced. I was taking 18 tablets every single day, and you have to take it in front of the nurse. They don't trust you to give it to you, because you will eat big capsules like that.

Louise:
Did it make you sick?

Justine:
Yeah, it made me a lot sick. I think that's why I got the allergies. As a result, I don’t eat fish anymore. Because it's more like, every time I took that medication, I don't even feel like eating. Some of the things - whenever I come across fish, I start feeling that I just want to vomit. That was the end of fish. I never ate fish from that moment, yeah.

Louise:
So it took a long time for the healing.

Justine:
Yeah. It took six months. It took six months. After every three months, I went back. I went back for check-up, they found that it's okay, but I'll have to continue until six months. When I completed six months, then they sent the letter to the Australian Embassy. That's when they sent us the visas. So, yeah.

Louise:
So how long were you, since you left your home, when you had to flee?

Justine:
Two years.

Louise:
Two years?

Justine:
Yeah.

Louise:
What was life like for Nadine and Isaac in the camps? What did they used to do every day?

Justine:
I think for them, because they have some school programs around there, and I went to join one as a volunteer that - cooking some meals for the school kids. Like, especially the kindergartens. So we were taking kindergartens and pre-school, cook meals for them. Because most of these kids, let's face it, they wake up in the morning, they didn't even have breakfast. They arrange to go to school, and then they'll be at school the whole day. Maybe they'll go back, they don't even have anything to eat. So we were preparing porridge, sometimes we have rice; we'll cook rice for them, we have milk to give to them. So I think that's the daily activity that they did all the time. But Isaac was little by then, he never did anything, it was just Nadine. We were all concerned - both me and Isaac were concerned for Nadine's life. We looked at how she used to interact with people. She turned into this - she wasn't happy. Like, it's more like she knew what was going on, and she was never happy. If we go like, she go to church, meeting people, she is always putting her arms like that. It was really hard as a parent, to watch. Yeah, so nothing - there is nothing much to do in the refugee camp. They don't provide toys, there is nothing, unless if people like - I always think, maybe they should have some centres, just a centre where kids can go play, have fun. Then in the evening, they go back. That way, the kid will have less in their mind to think about. But if you look at it, most kids in Africa or in the refugee camp, they grow up quick, because of the system that they are brought into. You have to feel like, 'I'm this child, but I don't have this, I don't have that. Maybe I have to work hard to earn that'. So yeah, it makes them grow faster than they are supposed to.

Louise:
Tell me what it was like when you found out that you could come to Australia.

Justine:
Oh my God. Oh my God, we were so excited, that finally maybe I'm going to take my kid to a place where they'll have better education, stable life, where they'll never have to worry, 'The rebels are coming!' Because anytime in the refugee camp, you don't know what is going to occur there. There is killing, there is people dying of malaria, there is all kind of diseases. It's not the best place for someone to live. But when we heard about the Australian news, that was the exciting news we had in years - it was so exciting.

Louise:
Just going back a step from what you just said, so within the refugee camps, did you still have fear that whatever threat you had where you would have to leave, that would -

Justine:
Yeah. Yeah.

Louise:
Was that common?

Justine:
Yeah, it's common, because there's always people dying. You wake up, you had your neighbour - tomorrow, he's not there. Who killed the person? No one knows. Because we have especially - like people who come through politics, they always follow them in the evening, in the refugee camp, they kill them. So you don't know who is going to be there, who is going to kill you, you don't know. Maybe your neighbour, anyone. There is always that fear. A refugee camp is not a place for someone to live safely. It may be providing safe, but it's not a safe place to live, no.

Louise:
Did Isaac have any kind of threats for any political stance that he had? Was that a worry at all, or not?

Justine:
Yes, especially that. It really worries you. As a woman, you feel like, even if my husband is walking ten meters, is he going to come back? You have that fear. Even walking in the bush, is he coming back? It's really - maybe when we came to Australia, that's where you feel, 'I’m now stable'. You feel, okay, I have my last breath, now I’m okay.” But still on the land of Africa, anything can happen.

Louise:
What did you know about Australia? Did you know -

Justine:
Nothing. I knew absolutely nothing about Australia. Because most people always talk about Canada, America, France - mostly France. In Congo, most peoples talk about France, because that’s where everybody goes, because they speak French. I knew absolutely zero about Australia. But I remember, in 2003, December, I was watching the TV, then it came on, the New Year, Sydney Harbour. I saw the light and go, “Wow! This is Australia!” [laughs] Oh my God, I was so excited. I go, “Really, this is a nice place.” Then we were in the process of - that’s when we just applied. Then you come up, we see all those lights. I go, “I wish I’ll go there.” So yeah! It happened that I came to Sydney and I’m able to see those lights with my eyes [laughs]. Oh my God, so exciting.

Louise:
So, tell me about the actual journey of getting to Australia. What was that like, from leaving the camp?

Justine:
Coming to Australia. I think that particular day, we were so excited. When we received the visas. Isaac had to put the visas under his pillow. [laughs] I always remember, he put the visas under his pillow. So, yeah. It took us, I don’t know, three or four days. We went to the airport. Still more, even if you’re at the airport, you just don’t feel like - I’m still going, 'Something is going to happen to me'. At the airport, you just have, 'I just want to get into the plane, maybe something is going to happen to me'. So yeah. We got in a very small little plane up to South Africa. South Africa, we stayed there for about - I don’t know how many hours. Five or six hours, we are just in South Africa. Then, yeah, here we got onto the big plane, we came to Australia. Arriving in Australia, we had someone waiting at the airport. Of course, I was just asking myself, “What the - what’s going to happen?” But it was written, someone will be there waiting for you. He will have your name displayed, you just go to him. He will take you everywhere. So, yeah.

Louise:
What was it like when you flew in? When you were looking over the -

Justine:
I didn’t even look. I can’t even remember, did I? I think I was just really overexcited. I was really - I always say that maybe I’ll have to go back, see the whole experience. I never saw anything. I was really looking - are we going to see that person? Are we going to see that person, is he going to be there waiting for us? That was my concern. So, when we walk out, we see the person with Kisimba's name there - we were okay. Then we walked toward him. He was an African man from Sudan. He took us all the way to Blacktown, where we lived. We arrived in Griffith Street, just in Blacktown, near the hospital. We lived there for two weeks. That’s just the temporary accommodation. They take you there, you stay there for two weeks, then they'll give you permanent accommodation. A week - just a week and a half, they came to take us. They took us to go and to check for the houses that we want. We found a unit in 4th Avenue, 48 Vienna Apartment. We found there. I liked that one. They took us there on 24 December. [laughs] Nightmare. So they took us there, and the caseworker, or social worker, whatever, she left us there, “OK, I’ll come and see you.” That was it. Little did we know that all the offices are closed. Everything is closed. We were brought in this place; there’s no gas, there’s no hot water, there’s nothing. I was very sick when we came there. Now, we woke up in the morning, okay, expecting someone is going to come and see us, and then they’ll bring something to us. No.

Louise:
So, it was Christmas day?

Justine:
Christmas day. We woke up in the morning, it’s Christmas day. You go in the street, there’s no one passing. We thought maybe someone is going to come, because, as the person told us, she’s going to come. She never showed up.

Louise:
Did you have furniture or anything in there?

Justine:
No. There was no furnitures. No, we were just taken like that. Now it’s more like, we wait for someone - they’ll keep coming, she said, they’re going to bring furnitures, they’ll bring the washing machine, they’ll bring all these things for you. To our surprise, no one came. We were left camping in our own house. So yeah.

Louise:
Did you have anyone to call?

Justine:
No. We didn’t know anything, we didn’t know anyone to call, because I think it’s good for some people to be introduced into some things. You come here, you have to call Triple Zero. You have to call this, if you need help, you call this line. We were - nothing was provided to us like that. Now we sit down, we don’t know what to do, until one day Isaac and I left. We went to - because, that period, we bought food, some fast food. We’re not used to the flavour, we’re not used to this. We buy McDonalds, chuck it. We buy this, we chuck. All the little money we had, we spent it on food and we keep, “No, we don’t want that,” we chuck it. We go back, we buy another, we chuck it. We chucked all our money, and we were left with nothing, until when Centrelink opened. When they opened, Isaac went and explained the situation. They said, “What? So how have you been living?” We said, “Just like that.” Then Centrelink gave him the voucher to go buy some food, and then they referred him go to DOCS. DOCS gave some nappies, and all that. [laughs]

Louise:
Because of the little ones?

Justine:
Yes, for the little ones. Then, but still, how are we going to live here? It's too much. So yeah, after a week, I think - or a week and half, that’s when they provided us with furnitures. Then they asked us to come in, because everything was closed.

Louise:
So, what were you eating?

Justine:
Fast food that we never ate. Practically, we never ate anything. I can say, maybe bread, just bread. There’s no gas, how am I going to make tea? There’s no gas, there's no - I don’t have a kettle. There’s nothing. You know, we practically ate absolutely nothing, because we did not know anyone here.

Louise:
So the person that dropped you there, was that like a settlement service?

Justine:
Yeah, I think settlement services. But she worked with Anglicare back then. It’s not like now, they have SSI - that’s the Settlement Services. But they had people from all over the place. They had people from Anglicare - where else? MRSA - they had people from all over the place that were helping people to settle. But I believe they did a bad job for us, yeah. A very bad job, because that was the last time we saw her. She never came. Up until six months later, they sent us the letter that the settlement services had - come on. You did nothing for us. You can complete all you want, but I think you never did anything for us. We just found ourselves here. That’s the moment where Isaac went to grab a map. He wanted - "I need to get out of here. Where am I going to start from? I need to find a map that will lead me somewhere." Then we found this man, Raymond Rivers. We went to the supermarket. Isaac and I were just moving in Woolworths, trying to find some food, and there comes this man. He’s from Argentina, Raymond Rivers. He says, “Bonjour.” We turned around and we said, “Bonjour,” and we asked ourselves, how did he know we speak French? Is this just an angel or what? ” Then he started asking, “How long have you been here?” We look at him, “Really? We are in a trouble situation here”. We explained him. He goes, “Really? I’m coming.” That’s the guy who brought us the map. He went and brought us the kettle. He went, he bought us a big sofa - “You have to lie down here.” So, he’s kind of - he helps us a lot. During that time, he used to come and pick us - he would take us to the mountains. I believe there’s so many things that the Settlement Services are supposed to do, and I believe they always do it for other people. But we can say that that guy integrated us more than the Settlement Service should have done. Yeah.

Louise:
Did you just have the two children at this stage, Nadine?

Justine:
Yeah. We had only two children back then. But then I came to realise I was preg - no, we had three. We had Ben. We had Ben in Botswana. Yes, Benny was born in Botswana.

Louise:
How was that like, having - was Benny born in the camp?

Justine:
I was pregnant in the camp, but when Isaac just got a job, Ben was born in the city. Yes, yes. Then I found out, when I was here, I was pregnant for Emily. So then, okay, that’s why - then it translated everything, I was being sick the whole time there. One day I went to the doctor - Isaac said, “No, I have to take you to the doctor.” In Blacktown,, in the Main street, we used to go see Doctor Luh. So we went to see Doctor Luh. He goes, "I’m going to run a test.” I go, “Why do you run a test? I’m just feeling cold.” He goes, “I’m going to run a test.” He goes, “You are pregnant.” No. No, I’ve just arrived. Because, when I was coming here, my main focus was to study. I knew, I have my kid now, I’m going to go to Australia, there’s an opportunity here. People would say, I can study. Now you come and bing-bang with the news of, “You are pregnant," I’m going to have a baby. That’s it. That means, all my dreams, gone. So yeah, I was a little upset. Even the doctor could tell, and the doctor asked me, said, “What do you want to do?” I can abort. Because the doctor said, "You have choices here, you can do this." I go - then if I have a choice to take the baby, I can take the baby out. Isaac looked at me and said, “OK, we’re not going to make any decisions now. We have to go home.” We went home, we talked through it, and then we realised, 'Okay, this is not the best thing to do, we’re going to have a baby'. To our surprise, we had a baby girl, Emily. So, yeah. I think everything was okay for that moment, until Isaac got a job. He started working in the factory. He worked in the factory up in Mascot.

Louise:
Doing what?

Justine:
Blinds. They were making blinds. He worked there for, I don’t know, a year or something. He developed hernia. When he developed - is it hernia, yeah?

Louise:
Hernia, yeah.

Justine:
Yeah, hernia, so he stopped. After the operation, he decided, hey, I've been a schoolteacher. I have to find something that I can do here as well, I can’t continue working something that is not okay with my health.” That’s how Isaac decided to go through the whole process of starting - he started the Certificate III in Community Services. After that, he went to the Certificate IV, then for the Diploma. After the Diploma, he went for his degrees. So, yeah.

Louise:
Did you have much English?

Justine:
Yeah. I had, because in the camp - in that camp, we had so many different people. The only way that you can communicate, it’s English. Okay now, let’s face it, it’s English, let’s talk English. Then even when we moved in the city, there’s no Congolese people. There’s no one you can talk to in your language, you have to know how to speak. I was grateful, because Isaac knew much than me, and he started teaching me. I learnt more from him than anywhere else, because in the refugee camp, there’s no program of English. They consider people like - they take more into children than adults. If you’re an adult, there’s no program for you. So we were just learning, picking it from here and there. But when I came here, I went through the English program, 530 hours, yeah, that they have through the Australian migrant program. I went to do that. When I did that, I decided to go and do the community services as well. I went for my Certificate III, then I did my Certificate IV, I went for the Diploma, and another Diploma last year. So I think, just through all these studies and communication, because I’m not someone that - because even when we came here, we found that some friends, if I'm with friends out there, they go, “Don’t talk.” I go, " No, I’m going to ask." Everything, I was asking, “How do you cook this? If I mix this and this, what is it going to bring? ” I was so curious to learn. If I look at that, compare myself and some of the friends, they are far behind because they never wanted to learn. Some of them never wanted to go to school. They go, "What are you going to study? " But I was just really determined. I’m this person that, I want to be someone that my kids will be proud of one day. I want to achieve a lot, so that they’ll be encouraged to do more than I have done. I just don’t want to be this mum who's just a stay home mum, she never did anything. Come on, I have an opportunity in Australia, why can’t I do it. That’s what pushed me more to go and study. So, yeah here am I today. Who knew that I’m going to be going to uni? I never wanted. Isaac has been pushing me. Whenever he was going to uni, he tells me, "Justine, after me, it's your go.” No way. I’m never going to uni. I’ll never go there. Just forget that dream of me going to uni, its never coming. But I’m surprised - here am I today. I am going to uni. I’ve found something. Anyone can do anything if you put your mind into it.

Louise:
So, what are you doing in Uni?

Justine:
I’m doing social science, yeah.

Louise:
Where?

Justine:
At the University of Western Sydney. Yes.

Louise:
All right. Tell us a little bit about what it was like, the progression with starting Nadine and the children at school. What was that like for you as a mum?

Justine:
I think, when we came here, the very first thing we wanted to do is to put Nadine into school. We found a small local primary school just around the area in Blacktown. It’s in Sunnyhold road, by Besma Street. So, we took Nadine there. It was just about a 10-minute walk. Every day, I have to wake up in the morning, drop her to school, and she was so happy. Because, at that time, we felt everyone was so welcoming. Everything was just okay. She met so many friends around. So yeah, Nadine loved it there. Every day she goes to school, she has something new to tell you. She made so many friends, because, in that community, most of them are migrant that live in that area. All the flats in 4th Avenue, it's just migrants. So, every afternoon after school, we'll all come down, take the kids to the park, play around, they’ll have fun. So yeah, I think that also helped a lot, to help the kids integrate more, because we just didn't want to bind them, like, “Stay with us.” We wanted Nadine to open up, meet new people, just learn more - as much ideas you can learn, that’s the reason why we decided that we are going to adopt English with the kid, so that that is going to help them to integrate more. Instead of us - it’s true, we can give them our language, they listen whenever we speak. But more, they should hear English, because it helps them through school, through their exams and the tests. Everything that they can do, they’ll come and still learn it back, but we have to give them the basics that they need.

Louise:
So you speak to them English at home?

Justine:
Yeah.

Louise:
Tell us - because you’ve got the six kids now, tell us their ages and their names.

Justine:
The first one is Nadine. Nadine is 15 now. We have Isaac, Isaac is just turning 13 in August - September, on 18 September. We have Benny, Benny is turning 11. Emily, Emily is turning nine. We have Phillip, Phillip is six. Elizabeth is five. That's the last one.

Louise:
What is it like, having a big family here in Australia? Do people make comments to you that it’s a big family, or what?

Justine:
Yes. I think having a big family in Australia somehow has a big impact in many areas. Like I remember, when we lived in Blacktown, because that accommodation they gave us, it's only a two-bedroom units. We lived there for almost four years, because we could not get a house anywhere, because of the large family. I had five kids by that time. The place was too small. The neighbours downstairs, they used to complain a lot the kids are disturbing them, they want to sleep. So then we decided, we needed to get a house that is on the ground, that the kids will have the backyard where they can play. We applied for a year, we never got a house. We went in so many areas, we even changed Blacktown. We went - as soon as you put five kids, “No.” Because people feel like, with so many kids like that, you are going to destroy their house. So - and it's true. That’s the reason why I feel like Australia, having many kids has an impact. It’s true, people comment a lot when they see. “Are all these are your children? How do you cope, how do you do it?” I feel like my response is always that I feel it comes all naturally to me. I’m all used to this. I came from a very big family. I’ve seen my sisters having 10, 13, 14, 15 children. Then for me, I have gone only six, haven’t done anything, It’s just small. It’s just small, because my sisters always feel like, “You haven’t done much, you have only six.” Because they have 14, they have - my other sister has 18. So, I haven’t done anything. But here in Australia, it’s a big deal. People ask you all the time, “How do you do it? ” Oh, my God. Sometimes you’d be passing, and people are turning around to look. Oh, my God. So, that inspired me. I felt that, I’m having so many kids, I need to drive. That’s what pushed me a lot into driving. Because I know, okay, I’ll get all my kids in the car. When we go, we just come out, everyone is out, instead of going to the train station, then you’ll be just the view - everyone will be, like, looking at you. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God! So, yeah. I know, it's -

Louise:
What was the process of getting your licence? How was that - of getting your licence.

Justine:
The process of getting my licence, I think I had to go through - because the moment we came here, we didn’t have the Internet. In 2007, that’s when I started. Because I didn’t have the Internet, I had to go to the library every hour. First Isaac - because Isaac did his. When he got his one, we bought a book. The first time was to go and buy a book. I read all the pages, just to have a general knowledge, general understanding of the system. Then I went, 'Now, every day I have to go the library for an hour'. To be there, Isaac will be looking after the kid. I’ll be there just to practice every - the general knowledge for the learners, yeah. In RTA website. I’ll be there for an hour. I committed myself for a month; every day, I’ll be there for an hour. Then after that, I went, I did my first test. I failed. I was so upset, with all that effort I put in. I said, “I’m not coming back again, I'm not.” But then when I went back, Isaac encouraged me. I went back, I did a second time, I got it. That’s how I started learning. But it took me time, for me to - because with all - because, by then Isaac was driving. Isaac would drive me everywhere, so I was kind of lazy, to pay for the instructor. But there was a moment Isaac was travelling overseas. I realised, when Isaac goes, I’m going to need this more. So that year, I pushed myself so hard. That’s how I got it. Yeah.

Louise:
Do you want to talk a little bit about the Congolese community and how that kind of works here? Yeah.

Justine:
Yeah. I think we have a Congolese community here in Sydney. It’s not really a lot. Like, we have larger African communities, like the Sudanese community, they have so many members. But we have kind of - it's very small. I can say maybe 100, or 150 families in New South Wales. Yeah, I think with the community, we always have the Congolese President. Currently we have Musa. He’s just a small younger guy that took over Blaise. He’s the current President. He has his own committee that they always organise all the events that are coming, just to bring Congolese people together, especially the young youth. For the past two years, we’ve been all involved in that, to bring on the African - I mean, Congolese kids fashion show, we always have that. We’ve made so many clothes, just African clothes for the kid. Every time we have, like any show, like in the independence, we’d bring in the kids, they have the African dancers, we bring our Congolese music, we teach them all these things. Even though they don’t know, we want to expose them to this, so that they'll be able to know, 'This is where we came from, this is our culture, this is how we do things'. We bring them - on that particular day, sometimes we always have the traditional painting. We'd dress them in small little skirts, and just small little wrapper, and then we’ll wrap them or put them in front, and then we'll teach them the dance. Especially me, I always take up that task. I’ll have at least two months with all the kids, teach them the African dance. On that day, we’ll put them in front; they'll perform the dance just really nicely, and then we have bigger girls like Nadine, from 12 to whatever they want, like 16, 17 - I know, say 15-16. When they are older, they don’t want to do that. We bring the clothes, we have a fashion show. They'll bring in, like - they’ll go, they'll pass even four or five times. Then I always encourage the mothers, they bring clothes, their own pieces. They bring just matching - just something that they like really. With jewelleries, you bring the purse, you bring your heels. It’s so fantastic, and the kids are really loving that. I think that’s one of the things that Congolese community is bringing out to our kids here, just to teach them that knowledge to realise, knowing that this is where we came from. It all comes mostly on the Independence Day that we celebrate on 30 June every month, which is coming next week. So yeah, it’s really spectacular.

Louise:
Is there any or much kind of cultural conflict from any other communities, or is there - do you want to talk about any of that?

Justine:
I mean, conflicts are always there. I believe that, wherever there’s people, there’s always trouble. Then the trouble comes when you have too many Congolese people around together - there is always that fighting. There’s a competition that is going on around. “I’m better than that one, I did this.” Mostly we find it with the people that came here 20 years ago. That group is trying to push us, bring us down more, because they feel, “We came here a long time ago.” Then we want to show them, “Even if you came a long time ago, we are going to push hard.” Because everyone came individually here. We didn't come her for anyone. You didn’t invite me, I didn’t even know you existed. So there’s always that conflict among people. It’s inevitable, it’s everywhere. But in the Congolese community, I think it’s a little bit too much. Yeah.

Louise:
What about - do you want to talk about any kind of - I know once you told me about a story about living here and having some issues with some racism stuff, or some assumptions.

Justine:
Yeah.

Louise:
Do you want to talk about that story?

Justine:
Yeah. I think, living in Australia, personally I’ve experienced racism in different ways. But I always tend to ignore it, because it's - I mean, I think some of the things are natural. It’s natural, it comes naturally. Maybe if it happened in my country - I was too little maybe to see it or realise it. I’ve come to see it here in Australia. Like here, we live here in Saturn Place - we have one of our neighbour, that she despise us that much. We didn’t know, because we always walk in - whenever we walk in, that's it, we close our doors, we don't go out. My kids, as we have six kids, they play with each other, they don’t need any friend. So we didn’t know that she doesn't like us that much, until the moment when I found the letter in the mailbox. She wrote the letter saying we should learn how to tidy, clean after ourselves, because Isaac and Benny - it was a Saturday, we were going to Wollongong. The kids were sent out to clean their dad's car. They picked some papers, they left some papers on the driveway. So the neighbour wasn’t happy about that. She sent us a letter saying we have to learn how to clean after ourselves, because we don’t live in the bush anymore; we are no longer in the bush, we are in Australia. She said all kind of things. She said we are pigs, we are monkeys, all those things. So we realised, okay, racism is there. But we tend to ignore her. We are living our life, and that’s it.

Louise:
Good. Is there anything else you want to talk about that we haven’t spoken about?

Justine:
I really don't think - I think I’ve spoken about everything. But the only thing I want to say is that I’m always grateful to come to Australia. I believe that Australia has made me the person that I am today. Because I always think, maybe if I never came here, where was I supposed to be? Maybe I’ll be dead, because if we look at the life expectancy in Africa now, people are living - if you live over 45, that means you’re lucky. Yeah. So but I’m always grateful. Maybe I would be dead by now - but I’m happy that I’m here in Australia. My kids are doing well, they are going to school, they are able to study and making friends, learning new culture every single day. We can see Nadine - the other time we had Nadine’s birthday, we were surprised she has no African friends. We were surprised. Honestly, it's more like they are integrating themselves, just getting out there, just like any other normal kid. We are just proud and happy for them. We pray that all this continues for the rest of our lives in Australia.

Louise:
Yeah, nice. I’ll just ask one more question, because I’ve asked everybody this question. Do you feel a connection to the Australian culture, living here, and what defines Australian culture for you?

Justine:
I think, for me, that really I haven’t seen like there’s any culture that I've learnt in Australia. Most African people tend to hold into their own culture. Most of them - there's some, even though we can say, "I can come up into the Australian culture," we have a different way of doing things. Where we came from, we also do different things. I believe that we tend to hold on into our culture, because we feel like our children should inherit that. We hope for it to go all the way, but I feel that, with the Australian culture as you are saying, our kids - maybe for the second generation, they will all become Australian. They will never have any culture that we have. So we try by all means to keep it around, so that our children will learn it. But we hope that it goes through, but yes. There’s so many things that we are learning from the Australian culture anyway. There’s a lot. You can’t avoid it. Everyday life, we learn the language. You'll never know, until you go overseas and they tell you, “You’ve changed.” Yeah. They tell people, "You have changed." Because if you look at someone who comes from Africa now, today if I go to Africa, the way I sympathise with people and my understanding, I’m more Australian than the way people live there. So, there’s more that we learn every day without knowing. Yes.

Louise:
Yes, good point. All right. Thank you so much.

Justine:
Thanks Louise.

[End of interview]